Spirituality in the Therapeutic Encounter with Amelio D’Onofrio
Episode 13
A Leap of Faith: Spirituality in the Therapeutic Encounter with Amelio D’Onofrio
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Amelio A. D'Onofrio, PhD, is former clinical professor in the Graduate School of Education at Fordham University. He served on Fordham's faculty from 1994-2019 and, for the last 15 years of that tenure, was Coordinator of Training in the doctoral program in Counseling Psychology. Dr. D’Onofrio’s clinical leadership also includes his work as Chief of Residential Psychosocial Rehabilitation for dual-diagnosed homeless veterans and Chief of Education Service in several U. S. Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Centers. In addition to his doctorate in Counseling Psychology, he holds degrees in Theology and Religious Studies from Georgetown University and the University of Chicago Divinity School.
Dr. D’Onofrio’s current work as a psychotherapist, clinical supervisor, and teacher is informed by the insights of psychoanalytic theory and the existential philosophical tradition. He shares his own perspective on the human condition and depth psychotherapy in his annual summer seminars in Gubbio, Italy, where he explores the nature of the therapeutic encounter and the transformative power of listening.
Dr. D’Onofrio is in private practice in New York City.
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Finding meaning and purpose is an integral part of the human experience, which is why, in psychotherapy, in religion, and in many other areas of our lives, we look for guidance. This universal need for contemplation can be thought of as spirituality. Yet, in the field of psychoanalysis, spiritual thinking is often overlooked, as it departs from traditional psychoanalytic theories. Today’s guest argues otherwise.
Amelio D’Onofrio has over 35 years of clinical psychoanalytic experience and his professional journey was shaped by faith and a desire for deeper understanding. From his immigration to the United States to pursuing his studies in Psychology, he discovered that a spiritual perspective could answer his more reflective questions about the self.
On this episode of The Art of Listening, Amelio delves into the integral connection between spirituality and psychoanalysis. He reflects on his own experiences with pain and suffering and describes how faith set the groundwork that allowed him to ‘emerge from the darkness’. Amelio also shares his new practices and means of spiritual discovery, by introducing his Gubbio Seminars. As the host of this retreat in Gubbio, Italy, Amelio provides psychotherapists and analysts with the opportunity to discuss pressing topics in the field. Drawing on the theme of this year's seminar, he highlights the epic story of Dante's Divine Comedy, guiding us through the poem and its connection to the self-analytic spiritual process of trauma, grief, and forgiveness.
Join us as we learn from Amelio how spirituality can enhance our understanding of the human experience, offering tools for personal growth, healing, and self-discovery.
Chapters
1 - Amelio’s cultural upbringing and his first encounters with suffering (7:50)
2 - Growing up with religion and Amelio’s relationship with faith (13:32)
3 - Psychoanalysis's relationship with spirituality (16:01)
4 - Ego-rational listening and generative listening (20:12)
5 - Amelio’s seminars and this year's theme: Dante’s Divine Comedy (22:52)
6 - The spiritual cycle of trauma, guilt, and forgiveness (28:15)
Links
More from ‘The Art of Listening’
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Amelio: [00:00:03] The fundamental psychoanalytic attitude is one of faith. I am not referring to a religious faith, but a faith in reality, a faith in the process, a deep, deep faith that together, patient and therapist can create something new, can create a kind of relationship that helps both to grow.
Eileen: [00:00:37] I'm Eileen Dunn, and this is the Art of listening, a podcast that delves into the incomparable power of human connection and the magic of good depth. Talk therapy. Today's guest is Amelio D'Onofrio. I want to start this episode with a story. It's one for the movies. A typical opening montage picture. Two people going about their lives. They grow up in different places, but early on they already share the same interests. At university, they each study theology and psychology. A few years later, here they are again in graduate school. Both of them in Chicago, just seven blocks apart. They pursue the same research topics, meet the same people. And yet their paths never cross. Years pass. Lives are built and one day. They finally meet from ships in the night to kindred spirits. This is how I discovered today's guest, Amelio D'Onofrio. Beyond coincidence. Amelio and I are both fascinated by the interplay of our psychological and our spiritual lives. We both marvel at the mystery. We are living together and believe in the healing power of human connection.
Amelio: [00:02:08] My intent or my agenda is nothing other than for you to be who you are, regardless of what that is, regardless of who society wants you to be, who your parents want you to be, who you may think your therapist wants you to be. Now, my listening can allow you to be who you are, and I think that's incredibly healing because we don't often experience that.
Eileen: [00:02:34] Our conversation is a testament to what we share in mind and spirit. But it's also so much more. Today, Amelio reflects on a life spent between Italy and the United States. From his childhood in the small town of Abruzzo and witnessing family suffering to crossing the Atlantic and finding his calling his why, Amelio tells us about his encounters with patients in the therapeutic space. He reveals the spiritual foundations of psychotherapy and discusses the seminar he conceived and now holds in Gubbio, Italy, his own creative way of starting new conversations within our profession. So while you listen, I invite you to notice what reminds you that we are human beings. We are more than material self. How do you know that place within you we call soul? With whom and when and where have you learned the meaning of forgiveness? And now please welcome Amelio D'Onofrio. He is a psychologist with over 35 years in practice. He is also a professor, a supervisor, and the founder of the Gubbio Seminar, an extraordinary invitation to contemplate the analytic and existential dimensions of psychotherapy. I'd like to ask you. Two questions to open our time together this way, and at the very end of the time, I'm going to come back and ask you the same two questions. Um, so let me ask you. Listening heels. How?
Amelio: [00:04:28] But it's a beautiful question and it's such a complicated question. I mean, I think of my work less as treatment and more as encounter. And encounter is about meeting. The other encounter is about welcoming. The other encounter is about allowing the other to be. And I think fundamentally, a core part of that is how we bring ourselves to that encounter, how we listen. We often think of depth psychology and and psychoanalysis as the talking cure, and certainly from the patient's perspective, that is absolutely correct. But I think from the therapist's perspective, it's the listening cure that we become the instruments. We're able to create a space for the patient to emerge. Right. Listening discloses our ability to relate and perhaps to relate in depth with others. And so, you know, I think of creating a listening space, a clearing as a primordial space for the person to emerge and ultimately to become themselves. And so listening is at the heart of it, not speaking as a therapist, but listening, receiving, meeting.
Eileen: [00:06:01] Beautifully said. Beautifully said. My second question that I'm going to ask right now, and I'm going to ask again at the end, is this. What is your why in this work?
Amelio: [00:06:14] Well, that's that's really a profound question. And it's moving to hear and to have to reflect on. I think my why is about meeting others suffering. We entered this profession often, not by accident. We're shaped as clinicians, perhaps even when we're young, by our family situations, by what we experience, by our role in our families. And sometimes there's a calling. There's a calling that we respond to. And for as long as I can remember, even as a high school student, I wanted to be a therapist. And I think part of it was my own experience of encountering suffering in my own family, of as a child, being helpless at times to be able to deal with it, make sense of it, help. And so I've always wanted to understand the nature of suffering and others. I've always wanted to figure out how to help relieve suffering, and that continues to be my why. Some of those motives can be unconscious for a long time, but once they become conscious, they don't no longer have to drive us. But then they can become a choice. And so my choice has been to continue to do that work.
Eileen: [00:07:43] Pain is the foundation of Amelio's work from the very start. It's what brought him purpose and helped him enter his profession. Suffering is also what fosters new encounters with patients. It's often the reason we come into therapeutic conversation. But Amelio has felt bonded with pain long before he could put it into words. Since childhood, pain was not a choice, but something he had to call his own. A kind of family heirloom. I want to ask you now what you said in that beautiful opening statement. You know, your own experience of pain, suffering. What was the pain? What was the suffering from your vantage point?
Amelio: [00:08:39] Yeah. So we immigrated to the United States when I was six years old. My formative years, if you will. My first six years were in Italy. And so I grew up in a small town in the mountains of Abruzzo, which back in up until maybe 1969, we did not have indoor plumbing. So it was, you know, it was a primitive upbringing. Now, if you were to ask me, what was your childhood like? I would say it was great. I didn't know not having indoor plumbing was an issue. So, you know, it was that kind of early life surrounded by family and feeling supported. But they were suffering in in my home there was illness in my family. It was my older brother. And he needed more attention, you know, in terms of managing his illness. And so I was four years younger than he was. So he was older. Uh, but that that clearly shaped my life and my early childhood. And I witnessed so much. Right. So that that stayed with me. I think it went underground for many, many years. And then in my own work, those deep roots resurfaced huge.
Eileen: [00:10:00] And what was it like, this unique cultural upbringing that you had beginning in Italy? Mhm. And then relocating. To America.
Amelio: [00:10:13] I mean, invariably, it cannot not have a huge impact on one's development. And, you know, my curiosity being thrust into two different cultures when we were in the States, living in New York, at home, we would speak Italian. Everything was Italian, our culture was Italian. But once I stepped outside, I was in America and had to learn how to adapt, speak a new language, go to school. So those were challenges. My parents didn't speak English. My father spoke a bit, but not well. So as a child, you become the translator. You become the bridge between the two cultures. And so the level of responsibility increases as a child in terms of one's role in the family. But it spurred my curiosity why are people different? Why are cultures different? Right. And again, it was another piece that fueled my desire to be a psychologist for greater understanding. So it played a big role and I've come full circle now. When I was a child, it's like, oh, I'm a I'm an American. I want to be an American. But as I've gotten older, I've reappropriated my Italian roots in very profound ways. And and I think it's a wonderful balance.
Eileen: [00:11:32] So the decision to relocate to this country has to be another piece of a story.
Amelio: [00:11:41] Yeah. I look back at what my parents did. It was an act of courage. Now, now they weren't alone. So southern Italy, post-war, there wasn't a lot of work. Young men would leave Italy to find work in other countries and send money back to their families. And and my father did that even before he was married. He went to South America, worked, sent money back. He was eventually able to get a visa to the United States. And then my mother and I came over. But yes, that's an act of courage. And, you know, if you were to ask me, could I pick up and go to a place without mastery of the language or any understanding of the language? No money in my pocket and a strange land that I'd be hard pressed to say I would do it.
Eileen: [00:12:32] Here, I'm touched by Amelio's humility and recognition of his family's courage. I am amazed, too, to hear him acknowledge so artfully the two sides of himself, the way he walks, a fine line leaning one way and then the other, bridging the gap between Italy and the US. It's a balancing act, so delicate and something Amelio has practiced his whole life. But you see, wherever we go, we never truly leave our homes behind. In fact, what we take with us will be our guide as we reach our next destination. Amelio knows this too, from one side of the ocean to the other. Something he held on to was his faith. An intimate, personal relationship with spirituality that helped him take leap after leap into the unknown to better find his calling. I'm also just thinking about the roots of your fascination in both the life of the mind, the psyche, but also theology and spirituality. Thinking about the role of faith and spirituality in you. Were there roots that were also involved in that sense of community?
Amelio: [00:14:00] Absolutely. I mean, you know, religion was the center of town. Our parish priest was like the mayor, if you will. The church steeple was the highest point in town. My family was very religious. Rosaries were set in the home every day. And so my exposure to it was ubiquitous. And so it played a huge role. Early on. My grade school in Italy was run by nuns. All the community activities for kids were run by the parish. It was an integral part of my early upbringing and it continued when we moved to the United States. Now my faith matured over time and it evolved deeper as I engaged in studies, both in high school, I went to a Jesuit high school. So I was Jesuit educated, and it was, you know, religion classes were required. I went to a Jesuit university, and I double majored in psychology and, and theology. And and I deep my faith both deepened and expanded. So it was both a horizontal and a vertical shift through that. I don't speak much about it because it is so much a part of me that I guess the way I think about it is I try to live it rather than make it explicit. And so in terms of my clinical work, my faith has shaped me to such a of an extent that it cannot not be part of what happens in the room. My disposition towards my patients, for example, the.
Eileen: [00:15:39] Encounter.
Amelio: [00:15:40] The encounter, my understanding of what the healing process is. If we think of the Gospels, for example, the Gospels are all about encounter. You know, the transformations that happened, the healing that happened is about human encounter, and that has shaped my thinking and I think really important ways.
Eileen: [00:16:01] It feels like part of what you stand for is something that I think about, which is that our field depth work in psychotherapy, psychoanalysis. Is missing more of a relationship with spirituality?
Speaker3: [00:16:17] Mhm.
Eileen: [00:16:17] Do you, do you think that.
Amelio: [00:16:19] Well yes. Let me channel Carl Jung. He said every psychological problem is at its heart a spiritual problem. Mm. So and I agree with that very much Freud and Lacan talk about focus on separation on the masculine archetypal. Jung talks about union and wholeness and coming together. I think you need both. And the psyche. The translation of that word is is soul, and the soul is spirit. You know, the soul is that part of us that where we find meaning, it's that unitive experience. It's that sense of self, right? It's that sense of coherence in my own being. And we human beings are spirit as well as matter.
Eileen: [00:17:14] And it takes strength, and it takes faith to believe that, to live with that, to go with that as a creative process.
Amelio: [00:17:23] Yeah. Particularly when the field around us doesn't embrace that, doesn't acknowledge that, and it becomes reductionistic in the sense of focusing on simply the biology. The biology is important. Please don't get me wrong. Right. You know that that's a critical part of what we do. But there's more to being a human being that's simply our material selves. Uh, and so my encounter is not with the material self, but it's with that which is beyond in the human person who's in the seat in front of me.
Eileen: [00:18:05] That's a that's a tricky thing to learn. It is to in the encounter to be there, hang on to yourself, stay with it, but allow yourself to be used to, well, say more in your words if you would.
Amelio: [00:18:20] Yeah, yeah. I mean, and, uh, I'm channeling beyond today. But one of the other things I said in his later writings was that the fundamental psychoanalytic attitude is one of faith, that he explicitly used that word. And I am not referring to a religious faith, but a faith in reality, a faith in the process. I know it's a cliche when we clinicians say you have to trust the process and all of that, but I think that work requires a deep, deep faith in that together. Patient and therapist can create something new, can create a kind of relationship that changes both participants and helps both to grow. So over the years, I found myself actually interpreting less than I did years ago. And I find that patients are able to make those interpretations themselves, and there's much more powerful joy in them when they're able to do that, and a sense of ownership of the process that I want them to have and that I celebrate with them.
Eileen: [00:19:39] So, well said I. I loved how I heard you talk about making a decision to take the risk, to be in the encounter, and then the attitude, the attitude of being there but letting go. We're there to listen as opposed to fix. We're there to join in as opposed to trying to impose a meaning from top down. The difference between ego rational listening and generative listening. Can you say a little more about that here?
Amelio: [00:20:13] Yeah. So ego rational listening is a left brain kind of listening. Right? It starts with what we already know, the categories we already have in mind. It's you know, the image I like is I know what I'm looking for. And I have a laser beam and I focus in on that. And it's an enlightenment way of thinking. It's a post enlightenment way of thinking, right? Rationality, linearity. What's true is only that which is seen, that scientism. There's only one avenue to unearthing the truth, and the truth is seen as a series of facts, and that that tends to objectify the person on the other end of the gaze, you know, of one's listening gaze, if you will. It imposes categories. It imposes a structure. On the other hand, there is a let's call it a right brain kind of listening or my language is generative, kind of listening, which in itself is less of a laser beam, but more like a satellite dish. That just is a large embrace that allows the patient to share themselves. And then the job of our unconscious is to piece together that information into something meaningful. And one's gaze is not. It's not a constricting gaze. It's not a categorizing gaze, but it's a gentle gaze. It's a tender gaze, one that appreciates the woundedness of the other, that on some level, the other person is doing the best that they can. And yet there's more of them, and that somehow they have forgotten their own being. And how do I help them reappropriate the essence of their being and their subjectivity.
Eileen: [00:22:17] By reframing faith as trust. Amelio shows us that spirituality is not just religion. It's also the promise that things will work out. A conviction to return to time and time again, to guide patients toward resilience and help them connect meaningfully in the space between speaker and listener. This is just one way Amelio explores spirituality and philosophy in practice. Another is through a series of seminars that he holds in Gubbio, Italy, every summer. Amelio invites practitioners to join him in Italy in hopes of sparking new conversations. This year's theme revolves around the Divine Comedy and is entitled Dante and the Therapeutic Journey. Archetypal principles for the restoration of the Fractured Soul. This epic poem depicts Dante's journey through hell toward divine absolution, and forms a powerful allegory for the purposeful and fertile work of psychotherapy. The way that you talk about inner and outer life, the way that that reflects your way of thinking psychologically but also spiritually. And in the seminar that you created, this now in Gubbio, the theme being Dante's Divine Comedy this summer. Can you say some more about where that came from within you, and the new conversations you hope to galvanize with what you're doing?
Amelio: [00:24:08] Yeah, so I completed my doctoral studies in 95, and from 1996 forward, I started to go to Italy every summer. You know, first, for a couple of weeks, I couldn't get that much time off from work. But over the years, I spend most of the month of July and August there, and it's really a haven for me. And so I've been doing that for a long time, and I always had this dream. Wow, since I'm here, wouldn't it be great to do something professionally here as well? And so in 2014, I took that leap. And really, it's a combination of my love for Italy and my love for the work that we do for depth psychotherapy, that I started the seminars and now I've discovered an incredibly tranquil and beautiful town, Gubbio, and for the last couple of years, doing it there. And so for me, the seminars, they're not really seminars, they're conversations. And it's about bringing people together of like mind who are interested in psychotherapy to play with some of these ideas that interest me together and create something. And I approach that work very similar to my stance as a therapist. I prepare my notes and I'm all ready. But then once the encounter happens, we see what unfolds and what we can create together. And over the years we've been able to create amazing experiences, real sharing people, opening up in both personal and professional ways, in going into our own depths as we engage in conversation with each other, as we talk about the challenges of our work. You know, the struggles, we have our own countertransference reactions. So it's been an incredible joy. And it's also an opportunity for me personally to keep stimulated.
Amelio: [00:26:21] I prepare throughout that entire year for the seminar, in my reading and my thinking. And this year the topic is Dante and the Therapeutic Journey. And that's been a dream of mine to engage with for probably the last 15 years, because I think Dante did. The Divine Comedy in particular, really offers us archetypal principles for what good therapy is. It really follows the therapeutic journey. You know, there's the Inferno, Purgatorio and Paradiso. Most people stop after they read The Inferno, but the inferno only is stage one of the therapeutic process. It's identifying the hurts. It's identifying the trauma. It's coming to terms with its effect on us. The working through part is Purgatorio. That's when we start to reshape our relationship with suffering, with our own suffering. And then Paradiso is is the integration part, you know, and some of that happens after our patients leave us. But it's a wonderful story. It's a narrative. It's a myth that I think captures what happens implicitly in our work, particularly if you do long terme work. Right. So we have to spend time in the darkness, we have to find our way. And that's the hard part. But then once you start, once you come out of the inferno, the hell the nature of the work takes on a whole different flavor. You know, it is uphill, the mountain of purgatory, but it feels like we're going downhill. Like there's an ease in that travel as part of that journey. So to so to unpack that together with others in the room, I think will be very exciting and I'm looking forward to it this summer.
Eileen: [00:28:15] It's not often, if ever, I think, that I've heard these three words put together like, I know you do. Trauma, guilt and forgiveness. I wonder how you think about that relationship.
Amelio: [00:28:28] Yeah. Well, so in recent years, I've really been thinking about the role of guilt and keeping us stuck. And where I've landed, or at least where I am today, is that it has a primary role in keeping us stuck. So what I found in my work with severely traumatized individuals is that what trauma does, particularly relational trauma, is that because the child can't reject their parent or isn't able to right, the child needs to survive that unconsciously. The guilt is absorbed. And you know, the self-talk, or at least at the unconscious level, is it's not that they're bad, but I must be unlovable in some way that I must be bad. I've in some ways ruptured a relationship, a primal relationship with my caregiver. And if I'm the culprit, if I'm the criminal, then I deserve punishment, right? And so we develop this inner voice, the alien other, the internalized bad object, the internal saboteur, the internal perpetrator. We have this internal voice that says, you're not worth it. You're not lovable. It's your fault. And so you need to suffer in some way. And this guilt then takes on a life of its own right, unconsciously.
Amelio: [00:30:02] And it actually keeps the suffering alive, keeps the misery at bay. In extreme cases, the guilt, the the crime, the sin, however you want to call it, takes on cosmic proportions. It's not even that another human being can can make this go away. Because my crime has been elevated to the cosmos like the universe. I'm. You know, I remember one patient saying to me, I don't deserve to get better. I'm an awful human being, right? The bond that this patient felt that they broke was with something greater than themselves, not only with a parent, but with the universe. And that's one of the struggles. How do you deal with that when the guilt is so profound, when it's beyond anything a human being can say? I think, you know, we often talk about, oh, you have to forgive yourself. I think that's hard. I think we can forgive ourselves only after we've accepted forgiveness from others or from beyond, in a way, finding understanding and accepting our human frailty and that our human frailty does need forgiveness.
Eileen: [00:31:33] Listening to Amelio, we come to understand that trauma, guilt and forgiveness are links in a chain, one to the other and then the next, and that the only way out of pain is through it. Dante worded it in his own way seven centuries ago, asking us to dive into eternal darkness, into fire and ice, to reach the other shore. It is perhaps a truth inherent to all acts of creation that we only emerge with something new and lasting. If we shed light on mystery and fear. In the spirit of that, I bring Emilio back to where we started today to take scope one last time at the ground we have covered together. So big thoughts that feel very timely to me. You know, as a peer and a colleague, having grown up in living in this world, professional world as we do, I think you say it really, really well and then make a really important point. I want to circle back around, and I want to ask you the two questions that I asked you in the beginning, just for fun. How does listening heal and what is your why? As a consequence of this trip we've taken and the time that we've had reflecting on what's gone on here, it's a different kind of thing. And I just wonder what you notice. You know, as much as anything, listening to what's happened and how it has been for you.
Amelio: [00:33:22] Well, one thing I've noticed is your listening of me, and that has been welcoming and just being able to see you on the screen and your receptive gaze. Right. So that has been liberating for me to be vulnerable and talk about some of these things that I often don't talk about publicly. And thank you for that. Yeah. How does listening heal? Listening heals because it it makes room for the other. Listening heals because it implicitly says, you can approach me and that I allow you to be to the extent that I have the power to allow you to be in my presence, and that you're important to me. My hope is that my stance towards you. My openness towards you honors you, and that my intent or my agenda is nothing other than that for you to be who you are, regardless of what that is, regardless of the categories that are out there, who society wants you to be, who your parents want you to be, who you may think your therapist wants you to be. No is you know that my listening can allow you to be who you are. And I think that's incredibly healing because we don't often experience that.
Eileen: [00:34:48] Well, I feel you living your why. You may have something more to say about that too. Or.
Amelio: [00:34:55] Yeah, I mean, to the extent that I can put it into words is that my why is is a calling, you know, is a calling to encounter others who are hurting and to be present to them in their suffering. And hopefully together we can help them not necessarily move beyond it or that's problem, but develop a new relationship with it so it doesn't have to take hold of us and destroy us, but actually can be a source, can be a gift in some ways for greater awareness, understanding and and and a freedom to love more fully.
Eileen: [00:35:45] And here we are looping in on our encounter. Speaking of his why, Amelio reminds us that pain is not the endpoint. It's the start of a new process. Something to propel us into action. Amelio first learned this truth in childhood in his hometown of Abruzzo. He watched his family care for his brother. Understanding pain so young. Years later in the US, he found this ache again lost in cultural transition, and he began to use suffering as a compass. In the therapeutic field, Emilio has used his sensitive soul and gentle gaze, and his profound will to protect, to build a practice of his own drawing from his Italian roots. Emilio has gone on contemplating the relationship between our suffering and our spirituality. He has learned to place the discovery of meaning and the relief of suffering side by side. And so he looks at trauma with a new eye, seeing tragedy as the first step towards freedom, away from guilt and into forgiveness. Increasingly coming out of our conversation, I want to keep hold of this lesson. How can the moment we share together therapists and patients, people and people? How can it not go beyond to call to our true essence? Emilio reminds me of the words of the great Jesuit philosopher and scientist Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. I want to thank Amelio for honoring his roots every which way, for his willingness to make public what he has lived more quietly and privately, and for taking the leap of faith to meet me here on this podcast. This has been the art of listening. Again, my name is Eileen Dunn. Please join us for our next episode as we continue to dive into the space between speaker and listener. You can follow on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, if you enjoyed the show, please leave a review in a five star rating. It helps us grow so that we can keep bringing you new conversations. And we'll see you the next time.
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