The Call of the Soul with Dan Perlitz
Episode 4
The Call of the Soul: Connection as a gateway with Dan Perlitz
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Dan Perlitz is a physician, a former family doctor, and real estate developer, and now a full time practicing Self Psychology psychoanalyst in full time practice in Toronto Canada.
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Throughout our lives, in our quest for meaning, we often seek out intellectual pursuits, believing that the more we know, the more we will be able to understand ourselves and the world around us.
While education equips us with theoretical knowledge, an excessive emphasis on intellectualism can overshadow the profound growth opportunities pure human connection is capable of, which often transcends the confines of logic. Similarly, we can only get so far analyzing our own internal thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. Genuine self-understanding requires more than just introspection.
During his professional life, Dan Perlitz came to realize that while business ventures and academia benefitted personal growth, they still couldn’t satisfy his desire for true self-understanding.
Dan is a physician, a former family doctor and real estate developer, and now a practicing Self-Psychological psychoanalyst in full-time practice in Toronto, Canada. Through his own experience with therapy, he realized the one crucial element missing in his search for meaning: an unbiased perspective.
In this episode of the Art of Listening, Dan will tell us about how his unwavering commitment to find personal meaning led him to therapy, and to becoming a therapist after years in the business sector. He’ll explain the value an unbiased vantage point offers, and how human-to-human connection is the catalyst necessary to ultimately unleash our true potential for self-discovery and growth.
Chapters
1 - Dan’s transition from Business to Psychology (3:10)
2 - Over-Intellectualism in therapeutic practice (9:11)
3 - How Dan found a greater meaning through Psychology (13:40)
4 - Why Empathy is not value-neutral (22:29)
Links
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Dan: [00:00:02] We all need relationship in which to exist. Nobody is an island unto themselves, so even the proverbial western cowboy who rides off into the sunset needs his horse.
Eileen: [00:00:19] I'm Eileen Dunn, and this is the Art of listening, a podcast that delves into the incomparable power of human connection and the magic of good depth. Talk therapy. In each episode, professional listeners, seasoned clinicians, share stories about their personal journeys, their professional experience, and how they bridge the gap between receiver and giver. Patient and therapist. We discuss the challenge, the wisdom, and the transformative power of listening within ourselves and with each other. Today's guest is Dan Perlitz. During a recent trip to Washington, D.C., I attended the annual gathering for the International Association of Psychoanalytic Self Psychology. There, I had the privilege of hearing Dr. Dan Perlitz, a practicing psychoanalyst from Toronto, Canada. He delivered a moving talk, and what struck me was his vulnerability and how he approached a traumatic experience with a patient from both an emotional and a pragmatic lens. Through this opportunity, he helped all of us in the audience sit with the complexity of our work and engage in an open and balanced discussion. In this conversation you're about to listen to, Dan continued with his honest and vulnerable approach, emphasizing the privilege, the power of the therapist, patient relationship and understanding, and consequently aiding in healing from trauma.
Eileen: [00:02:05] He challenged the idea of judging the severity of trauma, and instead highlighted the role of radical intimacy in making way for a true understanding. Our ability to listen to others genuinely is inseparable from our willingness to listen to ourselves. As you listen to our conversation, be thinking for yourself. What do you know about the experience of trauma? From big events to atmospheric variables and everywhere in between the elements of your life experience that have been hurtful and beyond you? Who do you lean on out of necessity? Who never lets you down? How has your experience of suffering taught you the true meaning of compassion? I'll share my final reflections and takeaways with these prompts in mind at the end of the show. Dan Perlitz is a physician, a former family doctor and real estate developer, and now a practicing self psychological psychoanalyst in full time practice in Toronto, Canada. Enjoy. Well, let's just start at the beginning. Tell me about your work right now. You know what is psychoanalysis?
Dan: [00:03:18] I'm a psychoanalyst. I see people for what has often been called talk therapy. And most of my patients I see anywhere from once to three times weekly and see a whole number of people who have suffered a significant amount of trauma of one kind or another. There is a trope of calling trauma either big T trauma or small T trauma, big T being actual physical acts of violence, and small T being emotional trauma as a result of relational configurations that are painful. However, I don't ascribe to that. I think trauma is trauma, and it's surprising how resilient people often are to what is usually called big T trauma and how not resilient often people are to what is often called small T trauma. So there's a continuum, and it's not easy to just differentiate between the two. I think our systems have a particular way of reacting that is similar no matter what. Through the relationship that we managed to build up between the two of us and through the understandings that we come to about how they have developed the way they have. I think therein lies really most of the healing that can occur. That's the basics of what underlies the process that I'm involved in with patients.
Eileen: [00:04:57] It's a real connection. It's a real, meaningful human connection. It may sound simple, but I know it's complex. And, you know, to talk about an experience is one thing and to live it another. As we both know, and I understand, that your journey to this profession has included some real twists and turns.
Dan: [00:05:19] Yeah, I'm somewhat unusual. I think I'm an MD who graduated in the early 1970s, and I worked as a family physician for a few years, and then I left that and became a businessman for largely a real estate developer for about over 25 years. And in my early 50s, I became tired of doing that. I became unhappy with continuing just to do that, and I decided to enter into training as a psychoanalyst, which is something that I'd had in mind very early on in my life and had remained with me, and in hindsight, it was a great decision. I love doing what I'm doing, and I find it fascinating and eternally gratifying in terms of just coming to understand people and be with people in such an intimate way, which is a great privilege to have someone be willing to enter into that level of intimacy with me as well. I now teach, I supervise, I write some articles from time to time, so I'm quite immersed in it and I quite enjoy it.
Eileen: [00:06:36] Can you say more about what drew you originally? And then let's go back to when you were a kid. Let's take it from the top.
Dan: [00:06:43] Well, like about 100% of the analysts I've met, I was not a happy child and I was trying to find my way out of that unhappiness, you might say. And because I was the kind of overintellectualized kid that I was, in hindsight, that was one of the primary ways I protected myself. I came across a book one day by Freud called Interpretation of Dreams, which he actually wrote for the layperson to understand something about the theories he was developing by Sigmund Freud. And I glommed onto it and thought, okay, this is it. This is the answer that's going to help me come out of this unhappy morass that I find myself in. And that idea, in hindsight, I knew I didn't have a deep understanding of what psychoanalysis was all about by any means, but perhaps because it was, what Freud did is have an overintellectualized approach to what psychoanalysis is about. And with the idea that if we just understand what it is that is motivating us, that somehow is going to be curative and it's clearly not enough. That's again, a whole bit of understanding. But it appealed to me. And. Somewhere. I hung on to that. Also in my 30s, shortly after my father died, I found myself feeling depressed and I entered into my first psychoanalytic treatment as a patient. And I did that for a number of years, and it was quite helpful. And then I had a second psychoanalysis when I trained as an analyst, this time with a self psychologist, and it was quite a different analysis, and I found it much more helpful, much different than the first go round. But I think we make our decisions a great deal through instinct in ways that we think we construct a cognitive understanding of, but actually as largely emotionally driven. And in hindsight, I feel I made the right decision for myself without having a lot of knowledge of what I was really getting into.
Eileen: [00:09:12] Over intellectualism is such an interesting concept, quite frankly, in therapy. It can blind the best of us in a space where human connection and emotional intelligence need to be at the forefront. As therapists, we continually invest in academic and intellectual pursuits. But the thing about stress or trauma, or the range of human emotions is that though they can and must be understood and studied from the intellectual point of view, they exist outside of that realm. Feelings often lack logic. While we can comprehend why we feel a certain way or react as we do, understanding doesn't necessarily translate to control. Striking a balance is crucial. We shouldn't disregard logic entirely, but it's unrealistic to expect it to solve all of our problems. This also applies to knowledge. Understanding why something happens doesn't always equip us with the means to improve the situation. In the context of therapy, as professional listeners, knowledge can act as a barrier to true listening. If you listened to our episode with Dhwani Shaw, he too spoke about overcoming this barrier, though in the context of using knowledge as a way to hide from the uncomfortable truths within himself. But here we are, getting ahead of ourselves. This balance is a battle that many reckon with, not just professional listeners, and it's a battle that Dan became familiar with early in his life.
Dan: [00:10:50] As a kid, I was in a pretty unhappy family situation with a whole number of issues that were going on. And we seek those kinds of ways of being, ways of relating, ways of thinking, ways to try and extricate ourselves out of unhappiness or painful emotion. One of the primary ways I did that is by being when I say overintellectualized, by trying to deal with how I was feeling, by having a cognitive understanding of it, and that somehow would solve these issues. Interestingly enough, that is mirrored by how many of us now view Freudian analysis, object relations analysis, Kleinian analysis, ego psychology in general, because one of their primary tenets is that the analyst has a theoretical framework within which he she understands the patient, and their job essentially is to fit the patient's ways of being into that theoretical framework. And if they can do that and articulate it to the patient, that somehow that's going to be curative. Now, that entire description I just gave you is an intellectual process. It's I have a cognitive framework saying this is how people function. You have these Oedipal set of emotions drives. Now that you understand it somehow that will help you. It's those kinds of constructs that are cognitive, that are intellectual, you might say, that inform the Freudian analyst or the ego psychologist as to how to understand a patient. Those things are not helpful in terms of how they're used. What is helpful is to come in contact with the feeling process that somebody experiences in the context of a relationship, and it's important to be able to talk, to articulate, to try and understand it. But those kinds of theoretical constructs should not be at the forefront of actually sitting with a patient empathically rather than theoretically, empathically try to come in touch with what is going on with this patient and what is going on with me while I am with this patient, and what is happening in our relationship.
Eileen: [00:13:38] Right, right. Feelings first. I wonder what the thread is that has drawn you from one profession into another over the arc of your experiences in different professions that revolves around the human connections and ideals and our need for connection with others. Have a sense that there's a thread?
Dan: [00:14:01] What's the thread? You know, what comes to mind is that we have to do certain things to survive before we can do other things that are of value to us, that are feel important. So it doesn't do a lot of good to talk to somebody about having a better relationship. If they're family, if they're starving, or if they're about to get killed. My family of origin survived World War Two as a result of their money. They're Jewish, and I was born in Romania, and about half the Jews there were killed. And my parents were not, because largely because they had a lot of money and back in Romania and were able to use it to bribe people and survive. That story stuck with me, and I feel that I've always grown up with a sense of the importance of money and and its survival quality. I haven't always been happy about that, and I felt that I had to make quite a bit of money to feel safe. I also found being a real estate developer very creative in its own way. I built quite a few buildings. I was very involved in the design and a whole lot of marketing issues and so on. So it was satisfying in a whole number of ways. I think what happened is by the time I was in my early 50s, I felt comfortable enough financially at least, that I could smell the roses. Or I could take a look at what else was important to me and. I didn't want to just keep on doing what I'd been doing because there was a repetitive quality to it, and I'd done it.
Eileen: [00:15:57] You said that you had a first experience in analysis, and then you had a second experience when you were in a training analysis with. It sounds like a self psychoanalyst and that there was a big difference in those experiences. I wonder if you could say more.
Dan: [00:16:11] Well, it mirrors exactly what I've just been talking about, which is that the first analysis was much more experienced, distant, and the second one was much more experienced near in the sense of experienced distance being. Here's your experience, here's my understanding of it, and I'm going to give it to you versus being in the experience together. Now that first analysis did help me, but I just I found the whole experience of this analysis with the self psychologist much different, much more alive and much more meaningful in terms of feeling like I'm understood and that I'm actually what we're talking about is real for me.
Eileen: [00:16:58] And it really mattered to you. Something that medicine and private practice with families and real estate and all the excitement that goes with, you know, that business world just did a lot of good things for you, it sounds like. But it didn't do something that you kept hungering to find that brought you into this profession. You know? And I'm just really struck by the theme that I hear is. About your life. Work is something about need and connections and doing what you need to do. Talk about survival when it's not a choice, not a question. And that's no one else can judge what that means. There's something that drew you back to this profession, to have the experience as a patient, and then to pursue it and to live this work now. And that's something that you really lit up with and got in that second analysis that was different. The sense of a connection, a feeling of company. I wonder if you could say a little more about what you needed that you couldn't do for yourself.
Dan: [00:18:03] I don't think any of us can do for ourselves. I think we all need relationship in which to exist. Nobody is an island unto themselves, so even the proverbial western cowboy who rides off into the sunset needs his horse. But when you ask that, I think it's such a privilege to be able to sit in a room alone with a person. No iPhone, no internet, nothing. Just talking together and being together. Two human beings being together. It's a rare privilege in our culture to do that for an hour, and to do that for maybe twice a week, an hour, and to do that over years. It's a great privilege to come to know someone each other that deeply, that that's what occurs to me that I've been very hungry for that kind of intimacy my whole life.
Eileen: [00:19:01] The question that I want to come to is something about what actually happens in that intimacy, and intimacy is an important word, too. It's a very special kind of intimacy, isn't it? When you're meeting with someone one on one for the purpose of listening to them. And I, you know, I wonder, how do you think about it? How do you listen? How do you know when you're really hearing someone you know in their need? As much as it may be like or different than your own?
Dan: [00:19:31] One of the probably two main underlying essentials of self psychology is the idea that understanding a person in psychoanalysis is through empathy. We are endowed with an empathic capacity in many, many ways. We know now about mirror neurons, but that's just part of our entire endowment of empathic skills and what makes us powerful. The most powerful species on Earth by far, is our ability to be social with each other. And by that I mean to cooperate, to be with each other, and to work together towards a common goal. So we are able to form very complex sets of relationships to create large societies. We have the ability to not only know quite a few more, but also to form a web of relationships that allow us to instantly relate to each other. When you meet somebody on the street, for example, there's an empathic process going on no matter who you meet for the briefest time, because we get a sense of each other, and getting that sense is actually something we're very, very endowed with a lot of capacity for. The complicated part of this is that along with our empathic understanding, empathy is never value neutral.
Dan: [00:21:04] It's always impinged upon by our own needs, by our own biases, by our own motivations, by all parts of our life. So we can never get away from the complexity of the field within which we are immersed. It's a very complex field. It no matter how much I try to empathically understand someone, it's inevitably through the lens of how I think and how I feel and how they make me feel, and all the aspects of what goes on between two people, and how I come to that encounter with an entire lifetime of experience and forming ways of being and thinking and feeling that are different than yours or anybody else's. So to really grapple with that complexity is to be on a kind of an adventure, an exploration in trying to decipher who someone is, and at the same time understanding who we are as we try to understand them. I'm describing to you how I think of my process of listening and understanding someone that when I listen to someone, I'm just. As much there as they are.
Eileen: [00:22:30] Empathy is not value neutral. What an impactful statement. It's a critical concept to grasp, especially in the therapeutic setting. Therapy necessitates connection. Drawing upon our remarkable ability to uplift one another, as Dan described, to build complex relationships that are fundamental to the functioning of our societies. However, this ability comes with human imperfections. We are not mirrors of each other. We are all individuals. So when we connect with others, inevitably we connect through our biases, our experiences, and innermost thoughts. Whether we realize it or not, this relates back to the notion of over intellectualism to establish a foundation for genuine listening. We must let go of the expectation that everything can be approached with knowledge and logic. There are concessions we must make when navigating the space in between. Remarkably, it's these concessions, this shedding of perfection, that render the space so distinctive, secure and impactful for both the listener and the speaker. With these insights in mind, Dan has come to appreciate the true essence and elusiveness of empathy.
Dan: [00:24:03] My empathy is my ability to be in your shoes and know what it is to be you. And if it were value neutral, I would be able to do it perfectly, but I would be able to be exactly you. But it's always influenced by how I think about it. I'll give you an example. I teach empathy to beginning therapists often, and I will hold up a card to them and say, here's a face. How do you think this person is feeling now? It happens to be a face of a sad person, okay? And I say, don't say anything. Look at this face and say, you know, just yell out yes or no. And is this person happy? No. Is this person angry? No. Is this person sad? Yes. And they get it right every time. So because the face is very clearly sad, this process seems so obvious and we do it so much that we don't think about it. We don't think that. But actually this is an incredible thing that we can look at each other and say, oh, I know what you're feeling. You're feeling sad. Or many other feelings.
Dan: [00:25:19] However, this face is quite dramatic. Most of our encounters are not with people who are dramatically happy, angry, sad, whatever, and we bring our own ways of feeling and thinking to this encounter. So I see a sad person like this person. How do I feel about this person? How do I feel about sadness? Do I feel what the hell have you got to be sad about? What's going on with you? You don't deserve that. Or do I feel I'm so sorry you're sad and I'll do anything to help you feel happy. A million ways of feeling about it. What am I prepared to do? Am I prepared to turn myself inside out? To not have you feel that way? Or do I find it unbearable and I have to run away from you? There are so many ways of dealing with it. Empathy is at the heart of who we are in terms of our social capability, but it's complex and we need as particularly as analysts, to understand that it's very complex. It's not as straightforward as just, oh, yes, I know who you are.
Eileen: [00:26:29] You know, it reminds me of how you said there's big T and little T, and maybe there's a whole it's easier to understand it when you're working with big T and harder to understand when you're working with little T or harder to translate the facial expression. I suppose it brings me back to wondering again with you these some fundamental question like how do you know from the vantage point of let's say you're sitting with someone in your office one on one, whether it's a first meeting or, you know, a year later, how do you know you're connecting with them? How do you know that they feel heard by you in that empathic way? I wonder?
Dan: [00:27:08] Most people will let us know in one way or another whether they feel heard. In essence, you're asking, how do I know a person? And whether they feel heard by me, whether they feel understood? We get feedback in many, many ways, mainly implicitly, non-verbally, and I think we are able to know if we let ourselves and if we develop our empathic capacity. Over time, we are able to know whether someone feels connected to us or not.
Eileen: [00:27:49] Dan's journey into psychotherapy and psychoanalysis felt almost inevitable. From an early age, he yearned for profound understanding and genuine connections. Although he glimpsed such relationships in his previous career pursuits, something was missing. He recognized that the therapeutic relationship with its unique and radical intimacy held an unmatched power. Driven by his keen intellect, Dan finally felt free to pursue this path, that revolves around intimacy and honesty, both within himself and with patients. As Dan said it in his courageous and plainspoken way, survival comes first. It's remarkable to see that even someone so accomplished in so many ways can find their further purpose, their fulfillment in the listening that the depth therapy relationship makes possible. When I think about the things that spoke to me the most in our conversation, and in light of the opening questions, I find myself circling thoughts about the very delicate and important relationship between being alone and being with a trusted other in the truth of our inner worlds. Comparing suffering is futile. Suffering is suffering. Only you can know what it is for you. Human suffering requires acknowledgment, care, and acceptance both within ourselves and in real human relation with others. Others who can never feel exactly as we do, but who can feel for and with us as we do the work of navigating our own experience. The only hell greater than suffering is feeling alone with one's suffering without splitting hairs.
Eileen: [00:29:40] Who doesn't know the experience of trauma or suffering moments beyond your control that shake your trust in the world and yourself. When we feel appreciated, respected and accepted within despite our troubles, we experience love and compassion. Receiving compassion teaches us to give it a lesson that our intellects and personal journeys alone can't provide. Compassion. The awareness of and respect for human limits acts like a remedy and a motivation, both when we feel compassion within ourselves and with and from others. We are inspired to navigate our challenges from a place of freedom with creativity. The depth therapy relationship aims for helping us to create the conditions that privilege, embrace and honor the truth at the heart of our experience as human beings. So if good listening gives way to giving and receiving compassion, can there ever be too much? This has been the art of listening again. My name is Eileen Dunn. Please join us for our next episode in two weeks time. As we continue to dive into the space between speaker and listener. You can follow on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, if you enjoyed the show, please leave a review and a five star rating. It helps us to grow so that we can keep bringing you new conversations. And we'll see you next time.
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