Human to Human with Linda Michaels
Episode 1
Human to Human: Taking action to bring human connection back to therapy with Linda Michaels
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Linda Michaels, PsyD, MBA is a psychologist with a private practice in Chicago. She is Chair and Co-Founder of the Psychotherapy Action Network (PsiAN). She is also Consulting Editor of Psychoanalytic Inquiry, Clinical Associate Faculty at the Chicago Center for Psychoanalysis, and a fellow of the Lauder Institute Global MBA program. She has published, presented, and been interviewed by the New York Times, NPR and other national media on the value of psychotherapy, the therapeutic relationship and technology, and the public narrative about therapy. Linda has a former career in business, with over 15 years’ experience consulting to organizations in the US and Latin America.
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On the surface, today’s communication technology may appear as a utopia for human connection. We can message and video call anyone we want at any time we choose, yet in order to embrace these means of communication, true and meaningful human connection must be sacrificed.
The value of genuine human-to-human relationships and interactions has never been more important. Particularly in the therapeutic space, where quick-fix technology has begun masquerading as a solution to our growing disconnect.
Thankfully, Linda Michaels is on a mission to bring the humanity back into modern therapy.
Linda is a co-founder of the nonprofit organization Psychotherapy Action Network (PsiAN) which advocates for awareness and policy to bring talk therapy to as many people as possible.
In this episode of The Art of Listening, she shares her personal journey abroad and in the business world, which led her to make a significant shift into the field of psychology. Through her experiences, she will illustrate how she discovered the importance of human connection and why she believes it is a critical factor in the realm of mental health.
We’ll also learn about how PsiAN is using research and history to defend psychotherapy’s unique proven ability to provide deep insights, healing, and personal growth– something that cannot be provided or done alone.
Chapters
1 - Linda’s experience and business, and the search for human connection (3:57)
2 - Finding self-fulfillment in psychology (11:45)
3 - The origin of the Psychotherapy Action Network (15:00)
4 - PsiAN's research findings on human connection (19:59)
5 - Issues with modern tech “quick fixes” in therapy (25:21)
6 - Self-investment and trusting the therapy process (30:06)
7 - PsiAN's current initiatives (31:44)
8 - Eileen’s Monologue: “The Action of the Cause” (33:33)
Links
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Linda: [00:00:04] We're aiming a number of new initiatives directly to the general public to help educate them that what they really should be looking for, if they need help, is that relationship. It's not a specific tip or tool or technique that will be most likely to help them. It's going to be the relationship with another person who is focused on helping them.
Eileen: [00:00:32] I'm Eileen Dunn, and this is The Art of Listening, a podcast that delves into the incomparable power of human connection and the magic of good depth talk therapy. In each episode, professional listeners, seasoned clinicians share stories about their personal journeys, their professional experience, and how they bridge the gap between receiver and giver, patient and therapist. We discuss the challenge, the wisdom, and the transformative power of listening within ourselves and with each other. My work in depth therapy has been a major part of my life for over 30 years now. It began when I was a 20 something student of clinical psychology, driven by a passion to become a healer. However, the true understanding of the power and the purpose of therapy came through a personal reckoning. I found myself on the other side as a patient experiencing therapy first hand. Up until that point, I hadn't much thought about the value of a listener, the necessity of a listener. As the world changes, our access to connection with each other is more abundant than ever. But there's a key and missing piece that doesn't seem to be evolving alongside the ever multiplying avenues for making contact. The art and skill of listening without another person, we're unable to hear to bear and make creative use of our sufferings, our truths. We can't create this magic in a space solely by ourselves. This is a constant conversation among professionals in our field. But my goal with this podcast is to extend the invitation to really think about this together with everyone.
Eileen: [00:02:29] One of the people at the forefront of this is Linda michaels. Linda is a business professional turned psychologist and therapist. Today, alongside her clinical work, she is the co-founder and chair of the Psychotherapy Action Network, a nonprofit organization that advocates for awareness and policy to bring talk therapy to as many people as possible. In our conversation, Linda will caution people about the traps of the new tech inspired mental health industry from apps that lack connection with real people to messaging that promotes short term fixes without any care for lasting results. When we get to this, I want you to think about the relationships in your life that have meant the most to you and the work that is needed to build and maintain those relationships. I also want you to think about our drive as humans to understand ourselves, and I'll ask you the question Are we ever able to truly understand ourselves with our own subjective sense of self alone? Is it ever really possible to see the whole truth for ourselves without the support of a trusted fellow human witness one who can help us reflect honestly, usefully, keep this in mind. And at the end of the episode, I'll share my final reflections. So without further ado, Linda michaels. This is from Stepping toward the Future by you, Linda michaels, Janice Muir and Nancy Burke. Psychotherapy of depth, insight and relationship sits at a nodal point embedded between psyche and social life, between the inner and the outer.
Eileen: [00:04:15] Our most personal experiences, between the obstacles we face and the opportunities we create. It's not called the impossible profession for nothing in our rich and broken world. It evokes many roles at once. Parent interpreter. Doctor. Shaman. Scientist. Judge. Teacher. Sociologist. Priest. Alchemist and poet. But perhaps the most central is its function as container of the most difficult and profound aspects of human suffering and healing. Admittedly, a tall order, and yet we see possibilities that are as incomplete as they are invaluable. In short, psychotherapy of depth, insight and relationship has an essential and vital role to play in the much needed healing of the world, you know. Love your writing and the power of words. You personify it. There's phrases. Given your background as business and psychologist and everything in between, that is doing just this to help us focus and articulate, but also pave the way for living out an answer to the challenge. How did you get here, Linda? With growing up with a father who was a psychiatrist and studying the power of language and culture and pursuing business, learning to live in a Spanish culture and world and to love it. Coming full circle to become a psychologist and launch this nonprofit, the Psychotherapy Action Network. We all needed you, too, and to become a real leader for us. How did you get here?
Linda: [00:06:08] When you put it like that, yeah, it has been a long journey and I guess just really threw out just my curiosity about people and experiences and culture and language has really been a constant throughout so much of, of my life, starting out as an avid reader, as a very young child and yeah, wanting to study language and literature and working in different cultures first in the business world with a focus on understanding consumers, their motivations and behaviors. Of course, in order to help the companies who hired me sell them more things for more money. And then really through my own therapy, learning a lot about that lifelong curiosity of others that I have and of understanding them and what makes them tick. And then, yes, a few months shy of my 40th birthday, going back to grad school once again, not for business this time, but for psychology, because I still deeply wanted to understand people, but I wanted to help them, not help sell them stuff.
Eileen: [00:07:13] Of course, our early beginnings are formative. What was it like in your house growing up with a dad in the profession?
Linda: [00:07:21] I think there's been some literature on this and it's certainly an experience unto itself. I mean, lots of talking about feelings and sometimes I would just wish like, can't you just ground me like everybody else's parents do? Do we really have to talk about this again? So, yeah, there was certainly that aspect of it. But I also had such a profound respect for my father and the work that he did, the work he does. He's 88. He's still working, still practicing and supervising and teaching, which is amazing. And also the influence of my mom who stayed home to take care of my brother and me and is an artist. And there was also just a lot of both of my parents are intensely curious people. And I mean, even now, reading new things, finding new things to to learn about and explore. So they were incredibly supportive.
Eileen: [00:08:18] There's so many places to come in with you, but I really wonder when you think about your own experience being listened to, that first therapy experience where you were being the receiver. Can you say more of just what that was like and where you were at the time?
Linda: [00:08:36] And I was working in business, traveling a lot, living and working in different countries in Latin America. On the one hand, it was very exciting. There was a lot of new stuff, new people, new customs and lots to explore and lots to be curious about. But I was realizing more and more when I was working in a business context that I was increasingly dissatisfied with the work and the focus of the work, again being to try to understand people through consumer research with the goal of selling them more stuff for more money more frequently. And I did not feel very good about that goal. And I also, through my own therapy, which was a long term therapy with an analyst, I realized that as amazing as a lot of the travels and curiosities and explorations were, and for how much they added to my life, there were also some avoidant aspects to them. I was not in one place where I could really build a connected, consistent, continual social network. Even though I had lots of good friendships, I would come and go. And that also, of course, impacted. Did my ability to find a life partner and pursue some of the other more personal goals that I had in my life and working through my therapist who to whom I give such credit and for whom I have such love. She really helped me with both finding purpose and satisfaction in both love and work. So I made a big career change at the age of 40. Was it any coincidence that at the same time I also met my life partner? Absolutely not. It was an incredibly transformative experience for me personally.
Eileen: [00:10:22] I wonder if you could say more about the art of listening and yourself and your work in practice these days.
Linda: [00:10:28] My day job is as a therapist and I see adults individually and in couples, and I have gone through a psychoanalytic therapy training program and extra additional post-grad training. So, yes, much of what I do is during the day is is listening and trying to be in relationship with my patients. And therapy can offer people that second chance to relearn ways of relating and really transform relationships and attachments that have really been unconsciously ingrained for so many years. In terms of listening, that's what I try to do. Try to listen for those stories and and feelings that have just been embodied implicitly for so long for people outside of their awareness and to try to see if they have curiosity about thinking about those experiences in a different way. And also, you know, we talked a little bit about action. I mean, I think people also have to take action if they do want parts of their lives to be different. They have to try something different as well. And it's not always enough to talk about it and think about it and reflect upon it.
Eileen: [00:11:46] I'm imagining that the sense of fulfillment you feel now, building on all your travels, feels really satisfying and different.
Linda: [00:11:55] Absolutely. Oh, my goodness. Yes. Yes. It's hard to even put them in the same sentence. There's no comparison. But yes, to be able to be invited into other people's lives like that and to help them as you do as well in your practice is just such a gift and such a privilege. And to really help people make significant changes in the ways that they move through life and get closer to the life they want to live is just it's truly a gift.
Eileen: [00:12:28] This journey you've been making from the people world you grew up in to the world to take on a very different path. I mean, I really am struck by just what a foreign country, literally and figuratively, you went to leaving the world that you came from and lived in it richly, if at some expense to yourself such that that you could bring what you had learned for the instrumental purposes and business that you did bring it home to your soul, if you will, and make a way to be in the world and to be with us. So when you think about language and the power of words, I wonder how you think about listening not just to the words, but not just to the words. What are you listening for? How do you know when you're really getting someone, when you're really connecting with them?
Linda: [00:13:22] It's a beautiful question. It's also so complicated. I think it's an ongoing challenge and quest to be able to do that and to figure out individually with each patient. You know, sometimes the listening can take a different form and, you know, attending to all of those spoken, but oftentimes and mainly unspoken changes, moments that where something new or different happens, some sense inside myself that a burgeoning question and feeling like, you know something, there's some doubt here or something we we need to explore. And I'm still learning and still trying to improve in those areas. I think part of what living in a foreign culture and in a foreign language does is gives you many opportunities to kind of question and assess how you feel moment to moment, because there are often so many new things and jarring, unexpected things that you can encounter day to day that you never do. When you're living in your main culture and language of origin, you are just breathing the air you've always breathed, swimming in the waters. You've always swum in. And so you're not even we just take them for granted. Those experiences have really helped me as well. Tune into the other person, their use of language, tone, how I feel, what I'm experiencing.
Eileen: [00:15:01] In 2017. Linda's passion for human connection and access to this type of care led her to co-found the Psychotherapy Action Network, which works to raise awareness and advocate for policy changes to bring talk therapy to as many people as possible. The Psychotherapy Action Network initially began as a network to support ongoing initiatives such as inclusive graduate training and social emotional screening legislation. It eventually evolved into a true advocacy organization, gaining non-profit status, establishing committees, and starting an open membership process. I had Linda share a bit more about how the network came to be.
Linda: [00:15:50] It really came together after a conference in Chicago in early 2017 that was initially organized by Nancy Berk and Janice Muir, assisted with that conference. I attended it. We came out of that conference with a list of names and email addresses handwritten on a piece of paper, and that was literally the beginning of Psychotherapy Action Network And. Yes, we do have action. It's literally in our name. It's our middle name. And so we do strongly believe that action needed to be taken, needs to be taken, needs to occur. We can't just talk about these problems. We have to do something about it. We have to raise real money and make real change because there's so many aspects of our systems that are preventing people and keeping them in a suffering situation and they don't have enough access to care. We're not saying this is the only treatment, depth, insight in relationship or necessarily the best. It's one of many and it needs to be considered and available to people who need it, who perhaps have failed other treatments or not gotten enough. And we were just very, very concerned that whether we looked at the press or grad school curricula or any number of things, training programs, etcetera, that this treatment was just kind of invisible and very marginalized. And we really wanted to change that.
Eileen: [00:17:21] It seems strange that we should have to argue or advocate for the fact that the human to human therapeutic relationship should be powerful. Not simple, not quick, but kind of incomparable. Did you say, you know, many roads lead to Rome? And it's not the only tool when it comes to suffering. And yet when medication or books or exercise or meditation even or all kinds of other things just just don't do it. It's almost curious, isn't it? Like that. We have to argue and advocate for that truth.
Linda: [00:18:01] Yeah, absolutely. It's curious and painful and confounding because we know decades of research have confirmed over and over again that it is the relationship. It's the relationship between the therapist and the patient between two people. That is what makes therapy. That is the primary intervention. It's the medium. It's the message. That's what makes therapy work. And regardless of what sort of theoretical orientation or modality the therapist has over and over again, it's the relationship and that common factor. And so it it really is. I mean, that is one thing that I hope as at Psychotherapy Action Network, as we're making more efforts to direct our advocacy to the general public with the support of professionals and all of that evidence and that credibility we bring. But we're aiming a number of new initiatives directly to the general public to help educate them that what they really should be looking for, if they need help, is that relationship. It's not a specific tip or tool or technique that will be most likely to help them. It's going to be the relationship with another person who is focused on helping them.
Eileen: [00:19:34] I'm thinking about my own experiences growing up in the field as a person trying to make sense of my own life and not once but multiple times the very particular people who were there for me at different points along the way. The challenge that occurs personally is yours personally, and no one can make sense of things for you, but the invaluable ness of having that fellow human who knows their own challenge with you, you know, to to simply not be alone and have support for the fundamentals that begins with valuing your experience, especially when your experience involves hurtful patterns of something that goes into creating a bruised sense of self when it comes to, you know, advocating for yourself and yourself is the one who is struggling. It's hard to validate your own experience having that objective other, as we say, who you don't have to worry about as mother, father, brother, friend, any other kind of relationship is really makes all the difference. I'm thinking about the research you all did, and the findings were so clearly, again, simply, how could this be? And yet it's really important to stand up for that. People want to understand. I'm thinking to myself, I needed to understand. Yes. Can you say more about the findings of your research?
Linda: [00:21:05] Yes. And just before I do, I mean, just to build on on this point that you're making, which is so, so significant pains and fears and suffering, especially those that develop in. In the context of relationship and early attachment experiences. I mean, these are not things that can be addressed abstractly or through, you know, classroom learning or reading an article or a self-help book. They have to be experienced and re-experienced sometimes over and over and over again. But in a safe and secure relationship that, you know, embodies those qualities that will be healing and containing that safety and empathy and deep curiosity. And we're not alone at PsiAN in saying that relationships heal relationships. Just to emphasize what you're speaking to, and I think both consciously and also more intuitively, the public understands this as well. This did come out in our market research. Again, the the market research study is sort of one of the tools that I brought from my business life and something that we put to use in the context of PsiAN and the world of therapy. And we did a qualitative phase where we did about 45 in-depth individual, one on one interviews with people to gather hypotheses. And then we tested a number of those in a large quantitative market research survey that went out to a nationwide sample. And we have over 1500 responses to that survey representative of the US population in terms of age, gender, ethnicity, geographic region and income. So we feel quite confident in this large sample that's representative. And we were really surprised pleasantly with what people told us that they want the majority. Almost 70% of people said that when they think about therapy, they want to get to the root of their problems or concerns and increase their self understanding and their self-awareness.
Linda: [00:23:17] And these are right on target with what a therapy can offer people. And we also learned that a similar percentage, about 70%, understand that emotional and psychological problems inherently take a long time to understand and resolve, or that they can because they have been building and growing for some time. And most of the people also said they understand therapy is really an investment in themselves and that it's a worthwhile process unto itself, but that also at the end of the day, they're investing in themselves and they look at that as that they are worthy of undergoing this experience and undertaking that investment in themselves because they truly feel it will pay off and help them. And the vast majority said they would actually. And this was very surprising to us, but the vast majority, 90%, said that they would actually prefer a therapy that addresses root problems, knowing that that would take longer as compared to a therapy that would be shorter but would be more focused on symptom management. And so if you think about what the public says they want and with all the research that that we do have, backing up death therapy and not only how effective it is, but how effective it is for the long term. When people stop therapy, there's research that shows that they continue to improve because they have developed that greater self awareness and those different working models of themselves and relationships and can move through life in new ways. And they really continue to improve after they stop therapy, which is the opposite of what happens when they stop shorter term structured therapy treatments or medications. In those cases, most people relapse pretty quickly.
Eileen: [00:25:22] This focus on finding the root cause and not looking for short term surface level care is where the human to human connection thrives. Something that we've lost along our technological journey as humans is the power that we alone have in the spaces we create. When we communicate with each other, the relationships that we build, nurture and maintain are essential to our growth. But these relationships don't form immediately. They take effort. Trust doesn't come from nowhere. Yet modern industry pushes these ideas of quick fixes of ease via technology, removing the aspect of therapy that makes therapy work. The human Connection. The public often lacks the insights we professionals possess as we live on the inside of this. We listeners are left to compete with an economy that's best. Interests are not with the person in need. This is something Linda and Psychotherapy Action Network are dedicated to overcoming. She told me more about the issues in the current mental health care landscape.
Linda: [00:26:37] I mean, I remember I did meet personally with a few different therapists before choosing the one that I worked with for many years. And so I definitely think there's an aspect to finding the right fit, for sure. And on the other hand, I think sometimes the messages are also out there, particularly from some of the large corporations now that have entered the mental health space and are matching, you know, individuals with therapists and, for example, Talkspace, Betterhelp those sorts of companies, part of their messaging, part of their selling points is that if you, you know, for whatever reason, if you want to switch therapists, even at the drop of a hat, you can do that on our on our platform. That's not necessarily a very helpful thing because those might be some some situations that really need to be worked through between that patient and therapist and that might really hold the key to significant growth for that individual to be able to, you know, express that disappointment or anger or outrage or whatever it is and work through that with that therapist, that might be exactly what that person needs to do. And so having a selling point of, oh, you can just walk away and ghost your therapist and we'll find you a new one at the drop of a hat. I mean, that that really actually I think cheapens the relationship and is not at all a helpful message.
Eileen: [00:28:10] It's really true. And there's a lot, you know, true to our lives these days where look at it, we're using the technology right now to connect and create this encounter, which still feels like a miracle to me in the course of my lifetime that this is actually happening. But like any tool, the business of. You know, using the best part of our executive faculties as human beings to think there's something about the human, no matter how intelligent the artificial becomes, there's that something that's sacred.
Linda: [00:28:44] Absolutely it. You know, it can take a while. I mean, a lot of the dynamics we're working with have taken a while to be created and not just a while in terms of that person's life, but even what they've gotten from the generations that came before them. But yeah, a lot of what people are grappling with has been years, generations in the making, and these are not things that are going to change quickly and.
Eileen: [00:29:15] It can be really excruciating to sit with pain that goes on feeling like a mystery or like impossible to solve. You know, that truth of being on the listening side of the relationship where you're holding I mean, the real meaning of the word container, that it's not up to us to be magicians or miracle workers, you know, and the job it is to grow in of trusting the process, right. As opposed to overly responsible for ourselves or for, you know, the patient and believing there's something that's going on in that, again, to use this phrase space between us, you know, that is a real thing. But like seeds planted or just about anything, you know, natural in life, it takes time and.
Linda: [00:30:08] It is incredibly difficult to hold that space and have that patience and maintain that curiosity when you are not sure exactly what's going on and you are not sure exactly what's getting in the way of more progress or and they themselves are even perhaps telling you they feel so stuck and they don't really know why. It's incredibly difficult to stick with it. But I think that is one of the gifts we can give our patients is to stick with it, to stick with them and trust in the process. And I've seen, as I'm sure you have, that if you hang in there and trust the process and continue to show up and that all of a sudden there can be a moment of change, a moment of growth, and that leads to something quite new and significant. And I'm thinking this is an analogy, but it comes from the world of evolution and biology. But one of the teachers I had in undergrad, his theory was one of of evolution was one of punctuated equilibrium, that as species evolve, there's, you know, long, long, long, long stages of equilibrium and minimal change, which are punctuated by moments of tremendous growth or change. And I think sometimes the therapy process can also feel like that.
Eileen: [00:31:39] That's a beautiful image. It really is. And I love the phrase that you've coined therapy that sticks. You know, it's so important to communicate this process and your passion is infectious. What do you think is imperative for listeners to take away from your work?
Linda: [00:31:54] You know, we talked a lot about listening and experiencing. And and then there's also the taking action piece. And I think in our field, we often don't prioritize the taking action. And so I think the advocacy work that we're doing at PsiAN can can feel like an awkward fit for many therapists. And I completely appreciate that. I also think that if we don't stand up for the work we're doing and the values by which we do the work and what we know about how to help people and what is healing, then we're seeing a lot of ground to people who don't know and who see those dollar signs and want to make money off of this. And then when they're done, they'll move on to another industry and do it all over again. And we really have to get out of our comfort zones and get out of our shells. And and I would invite anyone and everyone to try to join us because we need to protect this. People need it. They need this help. And we have to protect the conditions and the space under which we can help people. And it does take action out there in the greater world outside of our consulting offices. It's not easy. It's not comfortable. But I'm very concerned what would happen if we don't stand up for the work that we know can really help people? I'll speak for myself, but I don't know another therapist who would disagree just how much we are grateful and how much we learn and. From our patients. And it's such a gift.
Eileen: [00:33:39] I said it at the top and I'll say it again here. Linda's nonprofit is truly the action of the cause. The Psychotherapy Action Network embodies our commitment as a profession made of many disciplines for serving emotional need. And Linda's personal journey vividly reflects the necessary creative tension between doing and being action and reflection the foundation for productive listening. I had to laugh when she said she wished her father, the psychoanalyst, could have just grounded her when she was growing up instead of insisting that she keep talking about everything. The truth is that being and doing go hand in hand, whether we're making significant life changes or sharing our hearts with someone. Feeling and thinking mean nothing without the decision to act on what's happening within us. Action without thought and feeling is lifeless and learning to tolerate that enduring tension is critical for feeling alive with purpose and integrity. The practice of depth therapy is a doing for the sake of being. It is its own learning lab, its own mysterious venture into wisdom. The capacity to recognize and hold ourselves for the sake of hearing rightly, and the freedom then to help lead the way for meaningful exploration. It takes hours and years and still we go on trying, practicing to deepen our capacity to discover our faith, to exercise our trust. Nothing short of our own. Why and disciplined determination can teach us how to listen, to hear, to learn, to bear and use what we come to know. There never will be an app that can take our place as humans living in relation with one another.
Eileen: [00:35:32] In a world where access to connection goes on, multiplying at an inhuman rate. While the art and skill of listening may be faltering even more because of it, I feel compelled to make a new meeting place a place where we can interact mutually in thinking about and acting on the power, the importance of listening. We clinicians learn by being the receivers of people's risk of trust in us. We learn the wisdom that transcends our differences and stands for the ideals that unite us. We hope to share what we have learned as sure as we hope to involve you, our listener, in thinking with us about listening in the space between us. The purpose of this podcast is to make the point and the power of human therapeutic relationship known in a different way. In living color, you could say bringing the truth of research findings to life. Personally, as Linda said it well, it's a gift to be able to stick with our patients working as therapists and equally a gift to be able to risk our true selves in a safe and dedicated space with another person. The chance to have a whole new experience of and for ourselves as a person. This is the point. The point that transcends theory, transcends technique, transcends our differences, because we all share the challenge of making meaning of our lives, the suffering we don't control and the opportunities we do. Linda michaels, Depth talk therapist and entrepreneur, personifies the wisdom of believing in the power of human connection and the tireless commitment to fighting for it.
Eileen: [00:37:17] It's an honor and a joy to kick this podcast off with her interview at the top of this episode, I asked you to think about a few things the work it takes to nurture most important relationships with others. The drive We have to understand humanity and the lifelong need we have for being seen and heard by someone caring and objective. Are we ever able to truly understand ourselves with our own subjective sense of self alone? After listening to our conversation with Linda, I want to offer you my answers. Everything in our lives requires personal investment, whether it's our love lives, our careers, our creative pursuits, or the way we take care of ourselves and find meaning. Each day over decades and throughout our lifetimes, our intentions and the efforts we act on shape the outcomes, our relationships, especially with those who matter most, are no exception. They reflect the effort we put into building, nurturing and cherishing them. Many would agree that our dearest relationships with others define the quality of our lives, the truth of our well-being. So why wouldn't the opportunity for a real connection with another human being be the antidote to our suffering? A power tool even for. Helping us realize our visions and dreams. Secondly, our drive to understand ourselves and others as human beings is inherent. Maybe we can't control things, but we can come to make meaning when we're in pain or caught in confusion.
Eileen: [00:38:54] Having a safe space with someone to digest or process the truth of our experience is essential. We need a real person with the capacity, the desire, and the non-personal investment in our well-being to see us, to hear us. Whether that person is a paid professional or not, this unmistakable quality of room with trusted assist to be and to explore the truth going on inside. This is what helps us navigate life constructively, creatively and through the rough patches most of all. And lastly, the experience of compassionate curiosity in who we are and how we are can only come with risk of encounter with another human being. Wonderful things can come to feel critical, like journaling, meditation, reading the writings of others, exercise, prayer, being in nature, bottomless coffee cup visits with dearest friends. All can be sources of soul feed. But when it comes to exploring the world inside us, nothing takes the place of showing the truth as we know it and experiencing the response of another person. Please join us for our next episode as we continue to dive into the space between speaker and listener. You can follow on Apple or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and if you enjoyed the experience, please tell your friends, Give us a five star rating and best of all, become a listener to the listeners and subscribe to The art of listening. We hope to be able to keep bringing you new conversations about the power of listening.
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